SMART Policy Podcast
Podcast by the UT SMART Initiative. Host Jeremy Kourvelas speaks with experts from across the recovery ecosystem - representing healthcare, prevention, law enforcement and more - about local, state and federal drug policy to find out what is and isn't working to make this fight against addiction a little easier.
SMART Policy Podcast
When There's No License to Lose: How Tennessee Teens Are Still Buying Vapes
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You're listening to the Smart Policy Podcast, a production of the University of Tennessee's Institute for Public Service. Ask just about any teacher or parent about what concerns them. And you'll probably hear about vaping. According to the Tennessee Department of Health, 22% of youth admit to vaping, which is a rate more than twice the national average. Twenty-two counties across the state have identified nicotine, tobacco, or youth vaping as one of their top health concerns in recent health assessments. An additional 46 counties identify substance use or mental health, especially for youth, as top concerns. And research widely associates teen tobacco product use with these issues.
SPEAKER_02We've been seeing them go down in the rest of the country, but not in Tennessee. And it's because our laws just sort of have some loopholes left in it.
SPEAKER_00In recent years, Tennessee has passed numerous laws to restrict youth vaping, including limiting products to just the list of FDA-approved devices, banning sales to anyone under 21, restricting marketing, and significantly increasing punishments for breaking these laws. However, despite a reference in the law to revocation of a license as a potential penalty, there is actually no licensing system to sell tobacco products in Tennessee.
SPEAKER_02Because there's no license to sell tobacco products, vapor products in Tennessee, that makes it really difficult to get people to actually follow that law.
SPEAKER_00Last year, Tennessee also charged the Alcoholic Beverage Commission, or ABC, with conducting compliance checks on vape sales, as well as regulating hemp-derived cannabinoid products. Since launching that work, they have found a state average compliance rate of only 82%, meaning a lot of youth are slipping through the cracks and legally buying vapes.
SPEAKER_01You know, if there's a business out there that's encouraging their employees to sell to miners, you know, for that profit motive, without the license, you really can't stop them.
SPEAKER_00My guests this month are Aaron Rummage of the Tennessee ABC and Jamie Kent, Chair of Smoke Free Tennessee, the state's official nicotine prevention coalition. In this conversation, we talk about the ins and outs of tobacco retail licensure, a policy option that could potentially improve transparency, compliance, youth prevention, and more. We also talk briefly about how recent federal actions might change the availability of hemp-derived cannabinoid products in Tennessee.
SPEAKER_01Well, thanks for having me, Jeremy. I've been in this uh role since 2019. Um and I just love being a public servant. Um I was at the General Assembly before this, and I didn't realize how working in the executive branch, how rewarding that would be. And so I just love, you know, helping families and public safety and public health aspects of this job are, you know, really exciting just to think that I'm impacting uh you know the state of Tennessee and the citizens that live here.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Hey Jeremy, thanks for having me. My name is Jamie Kent. I am chair of Smoke Free Tennessee, our uh state's official nicotine prevention and control coalition. Uh, I'm also the founder of the BAM Group, an advocacy agency working to uh improve public health and music and entertainment policy through uh innovating advocacy. And uh I I still wear the musician hat from time to time too and play a lot of music uh at night around here.
SPEAKER_00This is an interesting uh group of people together. Uh we're looking typically at bars when we think about ABC, is that right? So why is it that ABC is responsible for vapes in any capacity? What's going on here?
SPEAKER_01Well, that is a great question, and one that about eight months ago we we uh didn't understand either, frankly. But um, we were given the task to conduct compliance checks just to make sure that people are not selling to miners across the state. Last legislative session, there was legislation to further enhance the taxes and create a registry on the vape products. I'm sure you've heard in the news there's a lot of chemicals in those vapes, and they come from all over the world. And the state was looking to get a better handle on what the consumers were getting, uh, how to track them. Um, and then I don't believe there was a tax on them at that at that time, but at the towards the end of session, some very wise members thought that it would be good to have a component of the legislation that dealt with enforcement. And so what they did was they gave us, they allocated us 12.5% of the new vape tax and commissioned us to hire some agents and asked us to do at least 2,500 checks a year. And so far we've been about six months into it and we've got about half of them done, so we're on track to have that done. But that's how we got into it, it was just through legislation last last year.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so so was that just vapes? Uh are there still other tobacco compliance checks going on?
SPEAKER_01We were just commissioned to do the vape. There are some uh tobacco checks being done through the Department of Agriculture. They've had a program for years, and then also local law enforcement uh are are doing those checks just to make sure that you know kids aren't getting in. But we are primarily just doing vapes. The the legislation gave us concurrent jurisdiction with other law enforcement agencies to conduct nicotine tobacco type checks, but we're trying to stay, you know, we're awfully busy with also with alcohol and the new hemp law.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01Um, and so they asked us to do the vape checks, and that's that's kind of what we're doing right now.
SPEAKER_00Well, uh I would have segued to another one and come back to this, but that was just such a natural transition. That hemp law, if we could get a quick overview of that as well, uh, because that also was a transition from ag to y'all.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, a quick overview. Let me let me go get somebody.
SPEAKER_00I'm just kidding.
SPEAKER_01It's a complicated law, it's been uh in the works for years. And for those out there who are listening who don't know much about it, the agricultural industry, you know, is always looking to expand. And if there's uh acreage out there that can be utilized, you know, they they want to do that. And so maybe I don't want to say 10 years ago or so, there's a big push to get back into hemp. Hemp was a product that was here early in our country's creation.
SPEAKER_00And George Washington grew up.
SPEAKER_01I think he did, and they made lots of ropes, I think lots of sailboats are made out of it, and right, but you know, technology has uh created a lot of new products from hemp, and so the it really came out of the federal government. The federal government passed a law to allow hemp, and because it has THC in it, it's it's you know, marijuana is illegal, right? And anyways, they they passed a law to allow hemp, but without knowing, they basically created a loophole for some products that are intoxicating. And these products contain THC and a number of other cannabinoids that impact your body in in different ways. And so we've really seen an explosion of these products across our state and the country, and there's a lot of people using them, there's a lot of consumers that are using them, there's a lot of people selling them. But you know, in Tennessee, we weren't really taxing them, and we had a regulatory model, and they gave it to the Department of Agriculture because they they were regulating the growers. And then last year, you know, as we looked at the marketplace and the work that AG was doing in other sectors, policymakers decided that, you know, the ABC, and really we're professional regulators, and when we do that, you know, that's about 100% of what we do. So they decided to give that job to us. And so they tightened up the rules a little bit. There was still some more loopholes that allowed what they call THCA, which is a form of THC that is not intoxicating, but then when when it comes in contact with heat, it turns into that Delta 9 THC, which we all kind of generally know as the intoxicant. But, anyways, we last year that was a uh major piece of legislation that created a lot of jobs for us. Uh, we had to hire a lot more agents, create a licensing system for that, and so it just rolled out January 1st. So we we're taking it over and then we're transitioning. Uh, there's still some ag legacy ag license out there that will expire in June. Um, so we've been busy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no kidding. Uh that, of course, like you said, it's it's a big history, there's a lot going on. Uh, that's not going to be the focus of today's episode. We've we've covered hemp and cannabinoids and cannabimetics and other episodes. We'll definitely continue to do so. Uh uh, but today, in terms of uh nicotine, I just wanted to get some more context. Jamie, what is happening with vapes? Why is I mean, obviously, you know, the chemicals in it and the like, but how is this different than cigarettes? How is what has this done to to youth tobacco rates in particular?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, unfortunately, we're seeing you know, these products were introduced many years ago and marketed as a way for folks to uh aid them in quitting smoking, but uh what we what we've seen over the last decade is instead they've been marketed in a way that's really been attractive to youth. We have flavors like banana split, blue raspberry. They some of these vapes are made to disguise look like they're on a marker or a sweatshirt string. Um, it's really kind of insane. And because of that, um we've seen the uh youth engagement of it kind of go through the roof. Uh, the last numbers we've got that 40% of Tennessee youth had experimented with uh a vapor product, 20% uh had done it on a regular basis over the last 30 days, uh, and that the youth vaping rates are twice what adults are in Tennessee, um, which is insane. And it's the same thing we've been seeing them go down in the rest of the country, but not in Tennessee. And it's because uh our laws just sort of have some loopholes left in it that need to be addressed uh in order to enable folks like Aaron and local law enforcement to uh to have better enforcement around folks that are selling to underage kids and giving them access that way.
SPEAKER_00We did see that some laws were passed increasing the penalties on selling to people under 21. Was there not parity achieved with that last year? And when I say parity, I mean like, you know, alcohol sales, you you don't sell to under 21 and or between tobacco broadly and vape specifically. What kind of laws have we seen in terms of the penalties?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so uh we, you know, last year they did in that when they created that vapor tax, they did include that uh folks would have to card anybody that I believe looks under 55, I think was the age they put in there. Yeah, so like almost universal licensing or universal ID checking. But uh unfortunately, because there's no license to sell tobacco products, vapor products in Tennessee, that makes it really difficult to get people to actually follow that law. There's major fines in place, but they're not tied to a license. And Tennessee is one of like eight or nine states left in the country that doesn't have a tobacco retail license. So anybody can hang a shingle and sell these products. Um, and that's why we have roughly estimated that there are over 13,000 establishments selling tobacco vape products uh in the state of Tennessee, which if you compare that to the United Kingdom, there's like 3,500 in the entire country. Um, if you look at like compared to McDonald's, which you think are everywhere, right? There's 350 McDonald's in the state of uh of Tennessee. Yeah, wow. So it's crazy. And I think anybody can tell you, you know, uh I live in a little town of you know, 30,000 people here in Tennessee, and there's at least 15 shops selling it that just for that in my little town. And that's not including the big box stores and grocery stores and everyone else, too. So the access is there, and I think uh I saw a stat from the Department of Health, too, that of those estimated 13,000, a third of them are in walking distance of schools. So it's just the access is right near, folks, and uh we just need to tackle some better policies that can close that loophole, give the enforcement more teeth so that uh if someone does sell uh uh underage and doesn't follow the law, that their license could be uh restricted. But right now there's no license to restrict.
SPEAKER_00So without a license, Aaron, how are y'all finding the people who sell it and and how and conducting these compliance checks?
SPEAKER_01Well, we've pieced together a few different lists from different departments um taxing. We got some lists from Department of Revenue and some lists from uh Department of Agriculture. You know, a lot of convenience stores have gas pumps, and so they are regulated through the weights and measures department at AG. And so we've we've uh and we're also just out driving around and we'll see places. So we're just kind of like old school, you know, old school law enforcement methods, frankly. But we've got a a fairly well, I would say uh a large list. There's probably more out there that we're finding every day. Um, but that's how we are conducting our checks is by using those lists.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I almost made a joke about driving around because they they're so loud with their advertising, but that actually does work, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it does. Sometimes that's the best way, just old school law enforcement, you know, uh beating the streets, I guess. But um, but like I said, we're we've we've had plenty to check, and I have got some stats if you'd like to.
SPEAKER_00I would love those stats, yes. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Well, like I said, July 1st, the was the enactment date, and we had a large task. So our law enforcement leadership wanted to make sure that we did not hesitate in getting those done. And so July 1st is when we did our our first checks. And since then, we've done roughly just shy of 1300, we did 1,296 checks, and we've found that uh 231 of those have sold to our miner that we've sent in to to check the store. So that's an 82 you know compliance rate, but unfortunately that's 18% non-compliance. So 18% of those that we have checked have sold to the miner. Of those 852 convenience stores, uh let's see. Well, convenience stores are at 86%, and tobacco's uh shops uh are at 74%. Just to kind of give you an idea.
SPEAKER_00Who is that 74%?
SPEAKER_01Tobacco shops, yeah, those are just like um mainly like tobacco or kind of vape shops, the ones that like fuel and convenience stores, those with gas pumps or those are more like a convenience store. They don't have to have a gas pump, but they could be more like a convenience store type. And probably those sell beer, and so their their compliance rate is a little bit better for them. And uh I I suspect that you know they're used to selling beer and checking IDs and that sort of stuff. So anyway, so they're a little bit better than than what we've found the tobacco stores to be.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you intuited my next question is why do you think some are doing better than others?
SPEAKER_01So if they're already used to the process, they're used to the process, they they do have other license. You know, generally with a license, there's always a provision that you know you need to follow other laws too, not just the you know, for like alcohol. We have our law and order rule, which means that you know that that establishment needs to also comply with other state federal laws, and so they're just you know at a heightened sense of just compliance in general.
SPEAKER_00So I've heard concerns that sometimes this industry can be so profitable that sometimes even if a business is is fined, they'll just pay the fine and keep going because what they're making is is outstripping that. And we see that some of our previous fines on non-compliance with legal tobacco sales have been pretty low. Um like selling cigarettes. I I can't remember off the top of my head, but it it's small, it's in the double or low triple digits in fines. These new laws that came with the law last year, it it goes up to what 20,000 on the second infraction. And the law does also include the stipulation that further infractions can include the loss of licensure. Um I was unclear. Is that referring to a tobacco license or or or or some other license? What what is going on with that?
SPEAKER_01Well, you're correct about that. It does refer to a license, and I think the fine is $2,500 for the first sale to the miner and $20,000 for the second, and also loss of licensure. They the the law did not create the license, okay, but it did call for a loss of licensure. So I I think that towards the end, you know, as this sausage was being made, and uh, you know, there's legislative attorneys involved, lots of people are involved in in legislation that it was you know, I can't speak for the authors of it. Of course, that being said, now there are wholesale sale and manufacturing license, but I don't think that that's what's that law is speaking to. Um, and I also heard that maybe they were talking about doing it in the future. So they put that language in there, you know, in anticipation for uh one in the future.
SPEAKER_00Would such a license make enforcement easier?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think unquestionably license systems are how our modern society uh you know operates, frankly. I mean we've had alcohol license going back to when Tennessee was a frontier, you know, you had uh hotel license, and you know, there's you know, driver's license, you have a license too, beauticians get license, you know, doctors get licensed, and it's it's really the way that modern society regulates activities, you know, as long as they're kept at a as a reasonable price and they're enforced in a reasonable manner, it really encourages both compliance and you know, those businesses can can grow in that system. But generally, I mean, you know, it incentivizes compliance with state law, uh, you know, at its court, deters crime and noncompliance, and it's all done really through that perceived risk of suspension or revocation. That's as simple as that. You know, it really ensures consistent standards across the state, you know, when you have a license system. I mean, if we set policies, state lawmakers set policies and they give it to an enforcement agency like ours, we can ensure that if you go into a shop in Memphis or Mountain City, the consumer's gonna know that those products are safe. The community's gonna know that kids aren't getting it. You know, it allows us to easily track who's doing it. We can better regulate, you know, like for instance, if if someone's been charged with crimes against children, we don't want them selling, you know, an age-restricted product, you know. And so, really, with that license, we can we can track who's selling it, we can easily communicate with them, you know, if there's something that the information that we need to get out to everybody across the state, we can easily do that. The bottom line is it allows us to get rid of bad actors, otherwise, you really, you know, if there's a business out there that's encouraging their employees to sell to miners, you know, for that profit motive, without the license, you really can't stop them. You can stop those employees, but they can always find new employees. So you know, license system is is just fundamental to our state and all the other states, frankly.
SPEAKER_02And yeah, well, a couple things I'll add to it too is uh you were you were talking about the different licenses that exist. And I was just reading in the Tennessee and this morning, actually, that you need a license to buy and sell a raccoon or a fox as a pet in Tennessee. So it seems like if we're gonna require a license to do that, we probably should as well to sell addictive substances to people.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, I I agree. I mean, you know, there's there is debate constantly about the growth of government, what we should license and not license. But when you're talking about a product that's you know, nobody wants their teenage kid to get their hands on vape, you know, or or cigarettes or whatever. I mean, that's uh you know, one pack and get them hooked, you know, and the next thing you know, you're fighting this for a long time. And so it's just fundamental, frankly, uh, you know, especially those products like that.
SPEAKER_02Agreed. And I think uh another benefit of having a license that's kind of comprehensive here is that like this industry is constantly evolving and changing and finding the next product that's gonna like keep that addiction going and get the next generation. And like we're even seeing it now, it vapes remain a huge problem, but we're also seeing that the like the zin pouches are like take. Over high schools right now. And you know, I've got many friends with parents in high school that they're like finding them tucked in the their pool room and they're in the hiding them in the pool cues where the balls are. Like it's uh it's just there's always something new and they're always innovating. And so we need to be able to protect that. So if a you know a retailer is not just saying, okay, they're not incentivized to sell the next thing underage because well, all that's got a loophole because big tobacco is always going to find a loophole there.
SPEAKER_00I'd like to take a quick opportunity. We hear so aren't aren't vapes safer? And and you mentioned, Jamie, is originally these devices were created as a cessation tool. That is for people who smoke cigarettes. This tool should ostensibly help them quit. But why why is it such a problem? I I mean, isn't it healthier, is what we hear. Like what what what all are some of the health concerns we see?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think that um that a lot of that is is rhetoric, uh, that is marketing spin. Um, there's a sort of this idea of harm reduction that you know, maybe if you're smoking five packs a day, vaping is better for you than that was. But if you are a kid and you're not doing anything, yeah, it is considerably worse than than doing than not you're you are inhaling it's not water, it's not water vapor that you are inhaling. It is a vapor that consists of chemicals of heavy metals. There's uh lead, nickel have been found in these things. We've we've found um it leads to increased uh mood swings, depression, and then they're just incredibly addictive. There's vapes now that you can turn up the hits so that like one hit off this is like the equivalent nicotine of five cigarettes. And so you're you're hooking kids really quickly, and that is like re what the a younger mind is uh more malleable to kind of being rewired to towards addiction, so it can lead towards other addictions later in life too, and kind of setting them up for that path, which is uh really tragic when we're letting that happen to our youth.
SPEAKER_00Just talking about prevention and prevention coalitions, what is the interplay between the field of prevention and then the role of enforcers like ABC? Is there communication? Are y'all working together when you can?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we personally work with the prevention coalitions. We work on you know public messaging campaigns, we have with alcohol for quite some time. Now that we're getting into this space, uh, and I wanted to elaborate more on what Jamie was saying about vaping. You know, there's a lot of data out there, and people can read it for themselves. You know, I mean, there are adults who who vape and you know, they make that decision am I gonna vape, am I gonna smoke? And you know, that that debate can can go on and on. But as I've gotten into and in my role here, you know, we need to talk to those community members that are seeing the impact of you know e-cigarettes and vaping. And you know, I've talked to both rural educators, urban educators, uh, rural juvenile justice, you know, judges. Uh vaping can also include THC. And so when we see our schools, especially in our cities, they're seeing a high percentage of those vaping, you know, e-cigarettes are uh do have marijuana in them, which is a whole nother topic past the nicotine. I mean, they're they're you know two separate substances, but you know, I mean, you you really need to include that in the conversation too, because those are can be devastating for somebody who's developing, frankly, you know, as a as a teenager or young adult, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, risk of psychosis and everything. I'd like to expand on that. In thinking about how so far, because we don't have tobacco retail licensure in Tennessee as of this date, that is, you know, mid-January 2026. There you you're there's been this use of proxy lists to find who's selling it on top of old school policing, like you said. But it's gotten me thinking about how so many of these shops that sell vapes also sell uh pipes for cannabis, and sometimes they sell kratom, and sometimes they even sell whippets that is nitrous oxide and the like. So they're they're selling a lot of stuff in in some of these places. Would potentially a tobacco retail licensure help find a list of entities that are selling all sorts of things? And I only mention these other substances because I mean hemp and cannabinoids that's come up in the legislature a lot. I know Kratum and nitrous oxide is gonna be an issue this year. Uh so yeah, would TRL that is tobacco retail licensure potentially help in finding, like you said, it's kind of part of that bad actors conversation.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, I mean, ultimately, anytime you have uh, you know, a licensed system, you're gonna have transparency, you're gonna have whoever the licensing agency is, they're gonna know who those people are. Uh, they're gonna have their business, uh, you know, they'll have to register with the secretary of state, they'll have to show us their driver's license. And even like with the hemp law, they had a criminal background check on those applicants. So yeah, I mean, it there's uh, you know, we may know where the business is right now, or most of them, or what we think most of them are where they are, but to know who it is, uh, you really need that license system because it requires them to kind of like step up and release that information. It also becomes uh a lot of the information becomes public. So, like, for instance, groups that want to know can you know make a public records request and get that information from us. Um, so it it's it's that's another aspect of the license system is just the transparency of it. Um, another one that we you don't hear a lot, and but it is really important is the taxing of it. You know, we have taxes and you have a lot of businesses that are playing by the rules and they're paying their taxes. Well, there's some that aren't. And if you don't have a license system, it's hard to tell who's not paying those taxes. And those taxes are important because the state uses that to you know to offset some of the bad things that come from some of those products, you know, especially in in the alcohol world. We we use that money to you know promote services for those who are addicted and and just you know, all kinds of things.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, and just to double down on that too, um, you know, I I think that a tobacco retail license just enables some of the stuff that's already in law, like they created this registry of products that people are supposed to be able to sell or not sell, so that you know, some of these illegal Chinese products are not make getting onto our shelves. But if they don't know who's selling them, how are you gonna know what products they're selling? Right. So this is sort of like the fundamental like let's figure out who's selling first and then can send people to see are you selling the right things or not, too.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, that's a really good point. Uh and and speaking of that, this is also a similar problem we see with uh cannabinoids. Um, what about online sales? Uh what's going on with that? I mean, is it it's kind of hard to patrol the streets for a digital retailer?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the the great point again. Um, I see why you're in this role, Jeremy. You have all the great questions. The old law allowed shipping of cannabinoids and the new law doesn't. So it would be our task to uh educate those who are selling via the internet. And there's particular dangers with shipping via the internet, frankly. You're really kind of turning everybody's home into a licensed premises at that point. I mean, you know, the potential for where it could be sold is as many houses are in the state, frankly. We've seen that with alcohol. We have limits on what you can get through alcohol. You can get wine, but you can't get liquor. Uh, there's limits on how much you can get. And over the years, we've had to work very hard. We there is a license for uh winery direct shippers. We've had to work very hard to uh stop those bad actors who would ship into the state around our, you know, our three-tier system that collects the taxes. So it is a con it takes constant maintenance on that. And it's and I assume that it's going to take that for hemp as we enforce that new law. But it's something that parents should be aware of that, you know, your teenager could potentially get online, order a product that you don't want them to have, and have it shipped to the house. So, you know, you need to, if you have a regular, you know, FedEx guy or UPS guy or even your uh male man, you should talk to them. You know, if you're a parent, you should talk to them and say, hey, if you see one of these regulated products, let me know. Because you know, maybe we're not ordering that. And so if somebody does order it here, you know, we want to know about it. So it's something that people should be aware of.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's that's a really difficult thing. I I like your point about how it it just requires that constant vigilance and and uh updating and that's the the importance of of funding compliance. Would TRL uh stop or even reduce some of these digital sales if you had a structure in place to do that constant vigilance?
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, I mean in in in theory, if you have a license and those those people who are licensed are I mean, essentially that license fee is paying for that regulation. And you know, we could use that money to enforce those laws. Um, and if one of those laws you couldn't ship, we would, you know, allocate resources to to do that, uh, you know, to make sure people aren't shipping. You know, in the hemp world it is illegal. I I don't know if the General Assembly will will go that route with cigarettes or tobacco. I mean, I know there's a lot of people who cigar shipped, you know. That that is to be determined. And and you know, as we talk about, you know, the ABC is is we are a tool of the state and the citizens of the state. And so our main role is to enforce the law, you know, that is is written by the legislature. And um, if they want us to stop shipping, that's what we'll do. Are we gonna get every bad actor? No, right, but we can cast a pretty wide net, and you know, we can make a big dent in an activity that you know the state lawmakers find is is that they want to make illegal, frankly.
SPEAKER_02So Aaron, I'm curious, would uh because that's good, good like just thought exercise here. Like you mentioned, like you know, some cigar places deliver and that might cause friction with some like trying to stop delivery sales of vapes at the same time or um other tobacco products, and like is there so we talk about just like stopping delivery, but could you license delivery so that those folks that are legit could be licensed to deliver, but then the ones that aren't are paying the paying extra fees for shipping things illegally too?
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah, yeah, and we see that in the alcohol model. We have there are licensed delivery services that are able to um they contract with liquor stores, and we require that contract when we license them, and they have distance limits on where they can go and and they need to serve food, so we have that requirement on them. Uh, you know, liquor stores are able to deliver under their license. Um, so you know, if they are found violating the law for that delivery, they their main license could be you know penalized, and that helps deter any any kind of non-compliance. So both UPS and FedEx are licensed, a common carrier license in Tennessee. So you most certainly could could license delivery service. It's not like you have to totally exclude that practice if if they didn't want to do that. Um yeah, that's a good point.
SPEAKER_00Okay, interesting. That was a great conversation. So lastly, I think, and this is more on the hemp side, there's been a executive order to reschedule marijuana to schedule three, as well as a bill at the federal level to close that loophole you mentioned earlier, that sort of opened the doors to like Delta Eight and Delta Ten and so on and so forth. I believe that passes through this next year. I I think the end of this year is when that uh so-called grace period will end, and then uh a lot of these cannabinoids will no longer be legal by exemption. Does that impact how does that impact Tennessee's law or or the hemp compliance? Do would you still expect to see some hemp products, provided nothing changes?
SPEAKER_01Oh wow, that's uh a great question.
SPEAKER_00I know a lot of ifs too. Sorry.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, no, no. It's it's it's a very worthy topic to talk about because we get a lot of questions about it. And let's just go back a little bit and and kind of put a little more detail on what you just said. Um in the the last continuing resolution, I think it was in November, um, towards the end of you know the process, there was not a complete ban, but uh a very small limit placed uh on cannabinoid products that were derived from him. And so the way it was written, it each package could only have 0.4 milligrams of THC, total THC in it that was derived from you know the scent products, which is a small, very small amount. So it's not a complete ban, but it's a very small amount. And they put a year, uh I think it was 365 days, so it would have been sometime this next November is when it will go into effect. So it's giving them another opportunity, many opportunities to discuss it again. And there are many groups who are working behind the scenes to find a solution, many trade groups that are working behind the scenes to find a solution uh to continue to allow states to have these products. So, in that sense, we're not exactly sure what's gonna happen. If you just look at that reduction in the amount that you can have in a product, I think our best guess is that it will impact the market in some manner with some sort of reduction. However, we still have a state license system here in Tennessee where people can come to us and apply for that license. You know, the interplay with the federal enforcement versus the state enforcement is very important when you talk about the future of hemp. And so a lot is unknown about what will happen. And I think you'll see some more negotiations. I think the next resolution is up this month, which would be an opportune time for them to discuss it. I don't know if they are going to address it in that resolution, but we do we are in touch with trade groups, you know. Uh we have a trade group of regulators who keeps us informed. We also stay informed with uh industry trade groups, and so all of them are working to find a solution that is uh not the ban, you know, so to be determined, right?
SPEAKER_00Okay, so always our last question outside we've we've had a lot of talk of policy today, so we don't have to get too much further, but I do always like to ask people in the end what other ideas should we be thinking about at perhaps the national, the state, or the local levels uh in terms of making the fight against addiction a little bit easier.
SPEAKER_01Well, I would say you know, fundamentals uh is is really key. Um you know, with alcohol, uh we have a proven method to regulate it, but we take a full circle approach where everybody is responsible, you know, the consumer is responsible. So if a miner tries to buy, they can be penalized. If an employee sells or does something that's illegal, they can be penalized, and the the business can too. So whenever we talk about doing anything, we kind of need to keep that full circle approach in mind, you know. And in these legislation develops over time, but you know, the the best models that we've seen have taken that full circle approach and they they really need to have aspects of it. Additionally, we need proper enforcement of it. If you're gonna have a law, it needs to be enforced, otherwise, it it's it's not going to come through with its you know intended, you know, outcome. So um just you know, proper enforcement and just a full circle approach is is you know what I what I think.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think Aaron nailed it there, to be honest. Uh that's spot on. And our coalition looks forward to bringing some legislation this session that that does just that so that we can uh really tackle this uh holistically, fundamentally, and fill some of those gaps that are needed to really make this enforceable and lower the rate of euphapia in the state because it's unacceptable how high it is right now, and we can do something about it, so we should.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Well, hey, uh thank you both, Aaron Rummage, Jamie Kent, uh, for joining me on the Smart Policy Podcast today. I really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. You're awesome, man. Go balls.
SPEAKER_00For more episodes on in-depth discussions on Tennessee policies related to substance use disorder by a range of local experts. Please subscribe to us wherever you get podcasts and visit our website at smart.tenessee.edu. I'm Jeremy Corvellis. Thank you for listening, and see you next month.