SMART Policy Podcast
Podcast by the UT SMART Initiative. Host Jeremy Kourvelas speaks with experts from across the recovery ecosystem - representing healthcare, prevention, law enforcement and more - about local, state and federal drug policy to find out what is and isn't working to make this fight against addiction a little easier.
SMART Policy Podcast
Funding Recovery Behind Bars: Bipartisan Solutions for Jail-Based Treatment
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You're listening to the Smart Policy Podcast, a production of the University of Tennessee's Institute for Public Service. It is increasingly well understood that the criminal justice system is one of the most significant and valuable intervention points for getting people into recovery. When people are given access to the services they need to enter and maintain recovery, the success stories are common.
SPEAKER_01And so we need to make sure that the resources are available in our jails to provide treatment, to get people screened for substance use disorder, to get them started onto treatment, and then to give them a warm handoff into the community to make sure that that treatment continues.
SPEAKER_00But providing those resources in jails can be tough, especially in small rural counties. For one, there are a number of policies and laws that jails have to consider when seeking funding for resources.
SPEAKER_01And the moment you are arrested, to the moment that those handcuffs go on, then your health care is the responsibility of whoever is holding you. So if the county jail is holding you, your health care is their responsibility. You know, having the facilities carry the burden of paying for all of these inmates is really putting county budgets in particular in strain.
SPEAKER_00And worse, when addiction goes unaddressed, whether due to cost or lack of local services or other reasons, recidivism tends to be higher, which makes the problem even more expensive and even tougher for counties to solve.
SPEAKER_01What's really expensive here is not just health care, but it's the churn. It's the constant re-arresting of people.
SPEAKER_00Our guest this month is Libby Jones of the Overdose Prevention Initiative. Her organization is currently working with the U.S. Congress on three bipartisan federal bills that seek to improve this situation. The Re-entry Act, the Due Process Continuity of Care Act, and the Peer Support Act. In this conversation, we talk about what these bills seek to do and how they could potentially benefit county governments. The ongoing history of bipartisanship at the federal level when it comes to fighting the overdose crisis, how Tennessee legislators have been leaders in this fight, and finally, how the best policies tend to come from the local level.
SPEAKER_01Great policies need to bubble up to Washington instead of go push down from Washington.
SPEAKER_00As always, this episode is intended to be educational and is not to be taken as an endorsement or rejection of any legislation. Any opinions, reviews, or specific language presented in this episode does not reflect the opinion of the University of Tennessee.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for having me. My name is Libby Jones. I'm the Associate Vice President of Overdose Prevention at the Global Health Advocacy Incubator. So we are a DC-based nonprofit. Um, you know, I live and work here in our nation's capital, and our team is devoted to finding federal policies that will help end the overdose crisis.
SPEAKER_00All right. So we are obviously mostly a state-focused show, but we do try to pull attention to federal policies that could really make a difference. Some of those recent ones, for example, that we've talked about the Matt and Mate Acts, which uh removed the X waiver for prescribing bufenorphine. You actually recently uh presented, uh mentioned rather Tennessee's connection in that. I wonder if you could, for the audience, give a brief recap of that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so you know, we I I personally had been working on uh the MAT Act since uh probably 2017-2018. Uh, just for folks who don't know what the MAT Act is, um, prior to the passage of this bill, there was something called the X waiver. So the X waiver for prescribing buprenorphine was uh in addition to a prescriber having to be registered with the DEA, they had to go through extra training and extra registration and extra oversight from the DEA in order to prescribe buprenorphine to treat opioid use disorder. So we've put we put ourselves in a scenario where we actually make it harder for physicians to prescribe treatment than it was for them to prescribe the medications which caused addiction in the first place. So as we were building this bipartisan base of support for the bill, you know, the just as when you're doing anything on Capitol Hill, we kind of hit a lull. We had a big movement forward, and then we started to see the momentum start to slow. And in the Senate, we were looking for Republican leaders to step up and co-sponsor this bill. Um, for those who don't know, uh, one common approach in the Senate is called the Noah's Ark approach to gaining co-sponsorship. So, what you do is you find a Republican and a Democrat who will come onto the bill together and, you know, who put their name on it on the same day so that it it's bipartisan, it's split down the middle. And so we went to go see Tennessee Senator Marsha Blackburn, and we went to her staff and we talked about the importance of this bill. And not only did the senator agree to become a co-sponsor of this really important piece of legislation, I really give Senator Blackburn a lot of credit because her agreement to co-sponsorship then brought on Bernie Sanders, which they came on together. Um Right to talk about bipartisan. I know, talk about bipartisanship, but they came on at the same day. And then we saw uh, you know, they kind of opened the floodgates. And, you know, I Senator Blackburn was the senator who came on that then brought a number of Republican uh co-sponsors behind her who said, well, you know, Senator Blackburn is on board, we can get on board too. And so I really, you know, I think she deserves a lot of credit, and we uh were very thankful for for that leadership. And then, you know, we we saw that bill pass with tremendous bipartisan support. We actually did an analysis at one point and we found that in the in that Congress that ended in 2022, the MAT Act was the 31st most popular bill in terms of co-sponsorship. But 31 is actually probably fourth if you take out all of the renaming of post office bills and names going on stamps. So if you take those bills out for MAT Act, yeah, it was definitely top five for that for that Congress.
SPEAKER_00So that's really, really, really crucial because that bill, uh, you know, for some broader context for folks, the extra training, the extra license that it took to prescribe epenorphine, this led to uh, you know, a lot of cash-only clinics. It led to further stigma about the whole switching one drug for another. So getting rid of all that allows uh primary care physicians, uh, a whole lot of additional providers to provide uh medications for opioid use disorder. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01For all too long, I mean, for decades, there have been these federal regulations and state regulations that make it more difficult for people with a substance use disorder to get treatment than it is for them to access illicit drugs. And until we can get rid of that, we're we're not gonna make tremendous progress. And the MAT Act was a great way of making it easier for people to get treatment.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So thank you for that background, because that it's an interesting aspect. It was a major change uh in the in the law, and it was nice to see that Tennessee was was part of that, that Tennessee leaders were were in fact kind of driving the ship in a way.
SPEAKER_01Senator Blackburn, I give her a lot of credit for that. So I don't even I don't even know if she knows that we give her a lot of credit.
SPEAKER_00Well, uh, so what are some of the policy issues y'all are working on now? Uh, because there's still a lot of work to be done. We are still seeing record overdoses, even though overdose fatalities are coming down uh across the country, and even more so than the national average here in Tennessee. We are still four times higher a rate of overdose deaths than when all of this started in the late 90s. So what there's still plenty of work to be done. So what is it that you're working on these days?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we are still really laser focused on access to medications for opioid use disorder. Uh, medications for opioid use disorder, so methadone and bupenorphine, they are the gold standard for treatment um across the globe. For uh, they are incredibly effective. We've got decades of evidence that proves that these medications uh work for folks. And so there's a number of policies that we're really focusing on. Um we really believe that we have to increase the locations where these medications are available, you know, increasing the number of medication units, for example, or mobile methadone treatment options. We need to make these medications as accessible as possible and remove those barriers that people are experiencing. We also need to expand Medicaid coverage. Medicaid is the number one payer of addiction services in this country. It holds true for Ten Care. 10 Care is the largest single payer of addiction services in the state of Tennessee. We need to address the issues around prior authorization. So we're working with Congress on addressing prior authorization requirements for these medications that make it more difficult for prescribers to prescribe these medications. We also need to make sure that these medications and treatment options are available in our carceral system. So we have a lot of very compelling data that shows that people in who are incarcerated are a much higher risk than the general population of dying from an overdose. We know that someone being released from incarceration is 40 times more likely to die of an overdose two weeks after their release. Incarceration, you know, I'm never going to say that incarceration is a substitution for treatment, right? Our jail system is not designed, nor should it be a place where people go for treatment. However, we have to acknowledge that the majority of folks who are caught up in our legal system have a substance use disorder. And this is a critical point of intervention. And so we need to make sure that the resources are available in our jails to provide treatment, to get people screened for substance use disorder, to get them started onto treatment, and then to give them a warm handoff into the community to make sure that that treatment continues. It's only then that we're going to save lives from overdose and we will reduce recidivism. This is one of those public health is public safety issues, and it's very clear. So we are working on two bills. One is the Reentry Act. This would allow folks who are current Medicaid beneficiaries to have their Medicaid benefits switched on 30 days prior to release so that they can get connected with community providers. They can get started on medications, they can get started on treatment prior to release. Another part of that is the Due Process Continuity of Care Act. It's a mouthful, but what it does is it allows existing Medicaid beneficiaries to keep their Medicaid benefits up until they are convicted. This allows for folks who may be arrested who are already receiving treatment to stay on that treatment and not get disconnected from their treatment provider. But it also would allow folks to get screened when they are arrested. That screening process is covered under Medicaid. And so getting people screened and then connected to treatment uh during incarceration, they're gonna have a much higher likelihood of not only surviving but thriving once they get out of detention.
SPEAKER_00For my audience, I might want to open with the question why is it not standard that people would be screened for addiction upon entering a carceral facility? For for many people who don't understand how jails work, uh it's it seems like that would be it it should just kind of happen, right? But what what barriers might exist for that?
SPEAKER_01So in 1965, the Social Security Act was created. And in that bill, which created Medicaid to begin with, there is what's called the MIEP, the Medicaid Inmate Exclusion Policy. So what that does is it says that Medicaid shall never be used to support medical treatment given during incarceration. It's it says basically anyone who is in custody, their the their health care is the responsibility of whoever is holding them in custody. So essentially, you know, that has followed us now to 2025. And the moment you are arrested, so the moment that those handcuffs go on, then your health care is the responsibility of whoever is holding you. So if the county jail is holding you, your health care is their responsibility.
SPEAKER_00If I may quickly ask, is that somewhat similar to say, like my health insurance is through my employer? Does that mean that the county jails have to purchase health insurance like an employer might for their uh incarcerated population?
SPEAKER_01From my understanding, different counties and different facilities have different models, but basically the county government is responsible for paying those those fees. So there are some who contract that out to you know medical services, and some of these counties are you know hiring their own medical staff to do it themselves. So what we've got is this huge patchwork of really thousands of different variations of this, right? But the fact is is that I mean, I don't have to tell you, county budgets are strapped and health care is extremely expensive in in these facilities.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And you know, having the facilities carry the burden of paying for all of these inmates is is is really putting uh county budgets in particular in strain. So some counties are doing this. Some counties are initiating people, screening and initiating people into treatment. They are using all kinds of creative funding to make that happen. They're using COSEP grants. You know, some of them, some states have these 1115 waivers which allow them to access Medicaid um services. But, you know, it it's it's all again, it's a very much a patchwork. And some the folks who are doing it are having to do this in a very creative way because Medicaid is not available. They can't bill Medicaid for those services.
SPEAKER_00Right. Yeah, and we're also seeing opioid settlements being used uh uh across the country. Um it's it's uh not any one state that that providing funding for treatment in jails is a very common expenditure with these funds. But I think the limitation of that also uh there's only so much and for only so long, I I think is is part of the puzzle there. You mentioned several other grants. Uh I was wondering if you could reflect on stability of funding real quick.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, that's that's always the key, right? I mean, look at what's happening right now. Right now, we're in the 24th day of a government shutdown. Um any type of federal grant program, and SAMHSA has a number of great grant programs. They've got the block grants, um, you know, the state opioid response grants, for example, DOJ has grants like the COSEP grants, these are really, really important for local governments to help support their operations. But Jeremy, to your point, they're not sustainable. They are at the mercy every year of the congressional appropriations process, which is broken. Right now that we're we're not even functioning, right? Right. But then not only that, the administration, whichever, you know, whoever is in the White House, it's that administration that gets to pick the priorities of how those grants money are going to be spent, which changes every year. So that's one of the reasons why we talk a lot about Medicaid supporting these services, because it would provide a more stable source of funding. The other thing about Medicaid is that there are standards of care in Medicaid, which are really important. And so if you know these carceral settings were to be billing Medicaid for services, they'd have to have a certain standard of health care. And, you know, I don't think it's surprising to folks who are listening, there is a really dramatic difference in the level of quality of care depending on where a person is located, you know, that is dependent upon these budgets. And so having that standard of care across the country, I think, would be really important in improving the overall health of this population.
SPEAKER_00For those who may not be familiar, why is a Medicaid more stable? Why is it less susceptible to political ups and downs?
SPEAKER_01Medicaid is mandatory funding. So it doesn't depend every year on Congress passing an appropriations bill. So right now, for example, the government, as as many of you know, is closed uh because there has not been a funding bill passed for 2026. But Medicaid and Medicare and CHIP are continuing because they're not part of that process. So that that does help. The other part is that um a lot of these grants, they're competitive. And so, you know, it just depends on you know, the success of winning these grants is going to depend on how good your grant writer is, right? That doesn't give me a whole lot of confidence, right? Um, but there are also like the big block grant programs, which are are great and they're providing a lot of funding, but they're also done on an algorithm. So as your data changes, you know, uh, so some of these grant programs, for example, are taking into account mortality rates. Well, then for communities who are succeeding and bringing down the mortality rates, what they're doing is obviously working. They then will get hit by lower, lower grants the next year because, you know, they're a victim of their own success in some ways. So that's why the grants, it's really important to have these grants and to be creative in how you're braiding together this funding. But Medicaid would cur would allow for a more stable uh source of that funding.
SPEAKER_00Another aspect of this, too, I I guess there would be a concern that if you open the door 100% to Medicaid funding, and this may have been part of the conversation back in the 60s, uh, if Medicaid it would be easy to see how there would be significant market pressure to make Medicaid the either the vast majority or even the totality of all healthcare expenditure through a county jail. Um, there would be cause so while that would be perhaps great at the local county budget line, that there's bird there's administrative burden that probably passes through the state. I mean, 10 care is one of the largest state expenditures we have. Uh most of the federal funds we get are for 10 care uh other than education. And uh so so you it gets wrapped up in these conversations. These bills wouldn't do that though, right?
SPEAKER_01So neither the re-entry act or the due process continuity of care act, neither one of those would expand the Medicaid population at all. This is just for existing beneficiaries. You know, what I think is interesting is, you know, let's go to the due process bill, for example. So it's called the Due Process and Continuity of Care Act. This bill is being championed by Senator Bill Cassidy of Louisiana. And when you hear Senator Cassidy talking about this, he's talking about this in terms of your constitutional rights. So in the United States, as everyone knows, you have the right to due process. You cannot be punished for a crime until you are proven guilty. And the assumption is you are innocent until proven guilty. Right. Senator Cassidy, when he's been talking about this in the past, talks about how people are getting arrested and they're having their health care stripped from them, and that you're essentially punishing them before they are being convicted. So it's not just about a fiscal, like who's going, who's, you know, fiscally going to be responsible for covering these health care. There are these basic constitutional issues. There are, you know, there's eight um eighth amendment concerns, there's these due process concerns, which also go into this, which, you know, in my opinion, are are very compelling as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's foundational to our core constitutional philosophy, like you just mentioned, innocent till proven guilty is the cornerstone of our entire legal system.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. And you know, we really believe that these bills will, in the end, bring down. Down total costs because the link between substance use and recidivism is so high. So if you can address the substance use, you know, in a setting where we can get treatment in, then you're going to reduce those rates of recidivism. What's really expensive here is not just healthcare, but it's the churn. It's the constant rearresting of people and the burden that that has not only on the jails and prisons, but on the legal system. So if we can cut off that circle, that constant cycle and churn, then we will see cost savings. Not only that, it's going to bring, it's going to save us money and it's going to make our communities safer. So if we can get evidence-based treatment that we know that works, we cut off that cycle of recidivism.
SPEAKER_00We hear from sheriffs and jail administrators all the time that our county jails are becoming the largest mental health facilities in the state. And like you mentioned up top, this is not what they signed up to do. They they signed up to lock up bad guys and they're functionally being charged with being healthcare provisioners.
SPEAKER_01You know, another really common sense policy that we really would like to see uh move forward is the what it's a bill called the Peer Support Act. And it it's tangentially related to this. But, you know, if we had what this bill does, and it was introduced in the Senate by Senator Um Tim Kane of Virginia, and what it does is it makes it easier for people to become certified as peer recovery specialists. This is a workforce that we have that is so valuable and so underutilized. This is where, if we can get some of these bills passed that make it easier for people to become peer support specialists, to have Medicaid and other resources pay for the services that these folks are providing, that's gonna be a game changer. If we can get peers in operating in the jails, if we have peers in our emergency settings, these folks are connecting people to treatment, they're connecting people to services. And they are going to be a way that we, you know, if we can invest in this workforce, we're gonna save money in the end.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the data definitely shows that. And uh here in Tennessee, we're seeing that being rolled out in a number of different contexts. Uh, there are efforts, uh, the governor's initiative of uh Faith-Based and Community uh uh efforts, they're working to get more peer support in jails directly. We have seen county opioid abatement funded programs that have employed a peer navigator directly in emergency rooms. We covered that at Sumner County, for example. Uh yeah, just having a dedicated person who the individual who's just experienced an overdose or is going through withdrawal or what have you, um, they're far more likely to listen to this individual than some white coat or a uh a law enforcement officer, or you know what I mean? It's it's the the impact of the peer-to-peer, it's really there for opening people up to receptiveness to treatment. Long-term outcomes are there. There's also, you mentioned workforce. And while this is certainly uh that's an aspect we should consider, is this is a viable employment option for people freshly in recovery, their impact on workforce development in turn has been observed. Uh, we have the Caring Workplaces Initiative here in Tennessee that uh employs peer certified peer specialists that help uh not only keep people in recovery, but help them uh stay on top of workforce development opportunities.
SPEAKER_01Oh, it it's tremendous um the impact that peers are having across the spectrum. I uh was really fortunate. I got to go on a field trip to uh Chesterfield County Jail in Chesterfield, Virginia. And um I got to go and meet with um their sheriff, but then I also got to meet with uh folks that they have who are incarcerated and they're going through a peer certification program during incarceration so that when they um are released, they can have enough credits to to get the certification, you know, before or shortly after their release. And so they have a pathway into the workforce that then is going to pay dividends down the road. I mean, they there's all of these examples and they're just so smart. You know, we have, as you know, as I think folks in Tennessee know really acutely, a shortage of mental health professionals, of social workers, you know, clinical social workers, and to have this whole workforce of peer support specialists who can be out there, you know, they're not going to be providing the same services, but they really are critical to uh connecting people and and doing all of that. Um, you know, we need to have all hands on deck, and this is a really important aspect of that.
SPEAKER_00And speaking of connecting to resources and coming back to our original conversation, uh thinking of the re-entry act, the two-week period after release that we've discussed, that connection with care we we hear so often, even when there are resources, people don't know about them. Peers can help with this, but but also the the funding really is a critical aspect of this too. In terms of improving connectivity, what do you think should be considered in terms of enhancing communication between different recovery uh ecosystems? This is a little bit abstract, perhaps something that comes to mind is like bundled payments for healthcare, like how we'll we'll take different specialties and wrap it up under one bundled payment. Is there some sort of policy lever to consider to wrap up recovery services somehow? Or right now are we just talking about too complicated a landscape?
SPEAKER_01Well, you know, it's that's such a critical question. And we saw a lot of investment into recovery under the the previous administration. You know, the Biden administration, for example, established at SAMHSA the office of recovery, uh, which to me, I'm like, how how are we, you know, in you know, it's like 2023, 2024, and we didn't have an office of recovery, right? To who managed this and and who you know made some some investments in recovery. So we need to see that going. We need to see recovery-ready workforces, we need to uh provide resources to industries on how to support people in recovery because there's a lot of hesitation. One of the biggest champions for a recovery ready workforce was now former Congressman David Trone from Maryland. He owns uh a large business. He owns a uh kind of a wine distributor in in this region. And he talks about how his best employees were those that he was hiring directly out of incarceration. And uh he was like talk about motivated individuals who you know want to come to work and go above and beyond. And so we've we've got those folks, we need to amplify those voices. But again, recovery is not going to happen without investment. Recovery is not going to happen unless we are making, you know, real concerted efforts. The other part of it, too, which we don't talk about enough, is that everyone's gonna find recovery in a different place. That we do a lot of naloxone distribution and uh a lock, and naloxone, we don't distribute naloxone, but we uh naloxone. Yeah. Uh and we talk about how naloxone for so many people is the first step to recovery. That yes, naloxone is harm reduction, right? The point of naloxone is not to get you into treatment. The point of naloxone is to make sure that you don't die, but it's really hard to recover if you're not alive. So, you know, it's it's these types of things all kind of build up to this recovery ecosystem. And I I like the way that you phrased that, Jeremy, is like we, it's it's not just one thing. It is a whole ecosystem of supporting workforces, supporting grants and policies that get you there.
SPEAKER_00So access to treatment in jails, connection to care upon re-entry, peers within the jails and in the communities, in the hospitals to help connect you to the local resources. Uh, these are some really critical points of intervention, it sounds like.
SPEAKER_01Making sure that people don't fall off of Medicaid or their health insurance, right? We we do know that when people lose coverage, so there are some estimates. I think it was the Center for American Progress put an estimate out that said 1.6 million Americans who are currently receiving treatment that is uh funded by Medicaid could lose their health care coverage um in the next few years because of the one big beautiful bill. So those 1.6 million Americans who are in treatment right now are going to be facing a cliff. So we need to be really cognizant of how do we get those folks, make sure that they stay connected.
SPEAKER_00I'd like to quickly touch on that actually. Uh there is a lot to the reforms to Medicaid in the OBBBA. And of course, the most talked about is uh work requirements. Yep. Uh so Tennessee is not a Medicaid expansion state. So most of the cuts actually don't even apply to our state. Um but uh there are some other aspects of it that do. Uh the the work requirements are part of this. However, I do believe there's also an exemption uh for for work requirements for people with substance use disorder.
SPEAKER_01You're you're right. So um HR1 does have a work requirement. So I believe it's 80 hours in a month. Uh, folks have to work in order to be eligible for Medicaid coverage. Right now, this is now shifted to the states. Congress has passed the bill, President Trump signed it, and now it's up to the states to implement it. So, what you're going to see is 50 different versions of what these work requirements are going to look like. So it's going to be up to each state to come up with those definitions of who qualifies, you know, how that 80 hours is calculated, what systems they're going to use. So, like if you know they're going to rely on an internet-based system, how complicated is this going to be, what are they going to do for people who don't have access to the internet, et cetera, et cetera. There is, however, written into the law an exemption from work requirements for people with a diagnosed substance use disorder. Right. So one of our concerns is that for a person who may be struggling to hold down employment because of a substance use disorder, they don't have insurance, they don't have Medicaid, which would allow them to go to a doctor to get that screening and diagnosis. So it creates this kind of catch-22, right? And so it's going to come down to how are states going to require folks to, you know, how are they going to make them substantiate whether or not they have a substance use disorder? And then also how long that substance use disorder exemption is going to be allowed. So we know that substance use disorder, so if you have a diagnosed substance use disorder, it's a chronic recurring brain disorder. Are states going to say that this exemption lasts for one year? Are they going to say that that exemption lasts until you're 65? Like it's going to come up to each state to figure out how that works. And so we're all kind of holding our breath to see where states land on that.
SPEAKER_00I was going to say, yeah, there's going to be a lot of different ways this rolls out. And some states will probably do it faster than others. And I know there are a number of states who already have work requirements in place, Georgia very famously, uh, and they're nearby us, of course. Yeah, this is going to be really interesting to see. All right. Well, we'll stay on it. And uh I guess lastly, I might ask, other than the policy options we've been discussing today, and uh I'm I'm very happy that this has been a very policy-heavy episode. Um are there other strategies we could be considering?
SPEAKER_01You know, I work for an organization called the Global Health Advocacy Incubator. So we the idea is that we incubate ideas, right? We incubate public health policies and we we work to advocate on their behalf. And really, it's the states that are where all of the good policy ideas uh they you know, the great policies need to bubble up to Washington instead of go push down from Washington. And so that is going to be really, really important. It's always been critical, especially, you know, in this particular, you know, and substance use issues. It has to come down to the people at the front lines. We have to, the the folks here, you know, I work with very well-meaning, incredibly smart people on Capitol Hill. But most of them, if not all of them, have never actually worked on the front lines of this issue. And we need to be hearing more from people on the front lines on what is actually going on. If not, we're going to have a bunch of solutions in search of a problem, right? But then, and and so, you know, and I say this as someone who spends a lot of time walking the halls of Congress. Uh, what we need to be doing is creating that pipeline. We need to be communicating up to the hill. My team, we need to be learning from the smart things that you guys are are doing in the in the field so that we can replicate those things nationwide. But then also we need to hear the things that aren't working. You know, what are those barriers? You know, there are lots of common sense things that we can be doing here in DC to help folks on the ground. But if we don't know, then we don't know. Right. So um I would encourage everyone reach out to your member of Congress, let them know what's going on, let them know what challenges you're facing or what barriers you're facing. And that's the only way we're going to kind of make it through these next couple of years that you're going to be tumultuous in terms of you know how these things are being implemented.
SPEAKER_00All right. Any final thoughts?
SPEAKER_01You know, um I am just constantly in awe of all of the folks that I meet with who, again, are on the ground, boots on the ground, who are doing this day to day. Kudos to everyone out there who are doing the work every day. I feel extremely lucky to be working in an on an issue that I care so passionately about. And I'm just very inspired by everyone out there who's who's doing this every day. So, you know, just wanted to express my thanks and gratitude.
SPEAKER_00The local stakeholders, the local prevention and recovery champions. There's some kind of like you said, about the the most resilient, hardworking, optimistic people you'll ever meet. So well.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. I'll give Jeremy all of my contact information. We want to hear those ideas. We want to hear what's working, we want to hear what's not working. And I will also say one other following, you know, final thought is that Congress right now and what's going on in Washington, it feels very broken. And it is, right? Bipartisanship is no longer in vogue, right? Um, the infighting is real. However, I still believe that substance use disorder, the opioid crisis, and overdose prevention, these are the last bastion of bipartisan cooperation. I really do think that in many ways they're non-partisan. The policies might be partisan, but the there is tremendous agreement from both Democrats and Republicans that we have to find solutions to this. And so that's why I remain very hopeful that we can move the needle on some of these policies because unfortunately, the overdose crisis has hit every congressional district. It has hit, you know, a majority of families across the country either have someone in their family who is suffering or know someone closely who is. And so we, you know, I just want to tell folks that yes, DC seems broken, but uh, and it is, but there are these points of nonpartisan agreement, and this is where we can we can continue to make progress.
SPEAKER_00Beautiful.
SPEAKER_01Love that.
SPEAKER_00All right. Uh Libby Jones, thank you so much for joining us on the Yeah Smart Policy podcast. I really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_00For more episodes on in-depth discussions on Tennessee policies related to substance use disorder by a range of local experts. Please subscribe to us wherever you get podcasts and visit our website at smart.tennessee.edu. I'm Jeremy Corvillis. Thank you for listening and see you next month.